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    Allies

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    Animus33
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    Allies

    Post by Animus33 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:46 pm

    Can someone explain CLEARLY what each differnt kind of allies do and can't do?

    theres alot of differnt opinions on the internet about how the rules read scoring units etc etc


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    ElvisIsntDead
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    Re: Allies

    Post by ElvisIsntDead on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:53 pm

    Hmm, havent got the RB on me to confirm, however it always seemed quite clear to me. The admins will get together and make a clear ruling and post the Results in the rules section.

    Elvis

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:06 pm

    Ok it's simple. Ignore everything the internet says that's to do with the stupid BoW video. They stretch on the use of the word "enemy".

    If you read the line carefully about allies of convenience it says:
    Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy
    units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic
    powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.

    Emphasise the word "units" it does not necessarily mean "you" do.

    Capturing objective rule states:
    You control an objective if there is at least one model
    from one of your scoring units, and no models from
    enemy denial units, within 3" of it.

    Once again emphasise the "you control" and "your scoring units". Those models are part of your army and not the "enemies" army.

    So for the purpose of capturing objectives, only battle brothers and allies of convenience troop choices can. Desperate allies clearly states that they don't count as being scoring units.

    No ally can deny you capturing your own objective and they can't grant you kill points if they are killed.

    Everything else is clearly written in the rulebook.

    This is how it supposed to be played, and how it will be played in our club



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    Animus33
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Animus33 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:20 pm

    thanks Smile

    the part of kill points as mixed me up a bit?

    u mean that if allies are killed in purge the alien they dont count as a point for the enemy?


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    Anarkhia
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:27 pm

    They count as kill points to the enemy, they don't count as kill points to the owning player. Just like everything else in your army


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    Vangeleon
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Vangeleon on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:30 pm

    ^^ 100% agree

    Animus33
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Animus33 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:43 pm

    ahh avela eso lo se

    thanks dudes!


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    Kelmacett
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Kelmacett on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:54 pm

    Also agree 100% with Julian's clarification.


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    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:58 pm

    Anarkhia wrote:
    So for the purpose of capturing objectives, only battle brothers and allies of convenience troop choices can. Desperate allies clearly states that they don't count as being scoring units.

    unless you have a HQ or Other rule that makes a unit scoring that wouldnt be otherwise.

    Agree with all the above.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:01 pm

    Correct that is true for battle brothers and allies of convenience, but desperate allies can never be scoring


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    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:06 pm

    I agree in general, however codex trumps rulebook! so if your codex has a rule that makes a unit scoring, regardless of their ally level they are scoring.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:23 pm

    I completely disagree. The fact whether a unit is scoring does not change the level of alliance. Desperate allies states that they are non-scoring and non-denial units.

    By that logic if you use a model that changes the force org chart to allow for 4 heavy supports; if you'd use him as an ally you can all of a sudden bump your 0-1 heavy support, to 0-4.


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    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:38 pm

    Anarkhia wrote:I completely disagree. The fact whether a unit is scoring does not change the level of alliance. Desperate allies states that they are non-scoring and non-denial units.

    I never stated this. Your level of alliance is indeed dictated as per the BRB. And indeed desperate allies does state what you write.

    However ill use spacemarine as an eg. Kantor special rule states: Kantor makes units of sternguard in your army scoring.

    Now lets apply the major rule that codex trumps BRB.

    so:

    -Space marines are desperate allies- no scoring units as per brb....ok
    - Attach a unit of sternguard and Kantor, kantor rule in codex specifically states sternguard become scoring...... codex rule overides BRB as per trump rule.

    Its as clear as day and i dont see how this can be argued when the codex trumps rulebook rule is applied.

    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:46 pm

    Anarkhia wrote:
    By that logic if you use a model that changes the force org chart to allow for 4 heavy supports; if you'd use him as an ally you can all of a sudden bump your 0-1 heavy support, to 0-4.

    And yes if this is the actual rule yes, will cost you many points but yes.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:56 pm

    I think they are the only exception as they state specifically that they are "scoring". However, if we're to play the game of strict RAW then they can't deny others from objectives as they are still non-denial units lol.


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    Rakoo
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Rakoo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:59 pm

    Following that logic, in Big Guns Never Tire mission, HS from Allies of Convenience IS scoring unit...


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    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:59 pm

    Entirely, they are only scoring units as stated by Kantors rule. The desperate allies would omit them from being denial units.( unless the rule is: scoring units are denial, not sure as no rule book infront of me, please clarify).

    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:01 pm

    Rakoo wrote:Following that logic, in Big Guns Never Tire mission, HS from Allies of Convenience IS scoring unit...

    Not sure of the rules so cant comment till i get home.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:01 pm

    It does not say under scoring units that they are by default denial units. They are both 2 different things.


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    Vangeleon
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Vangeleon on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:02 pm

    imo irregardless of whether they scoring or not, the moment they become distrustful allies, they dont count as scoring units for your army. (In that situation/game)

    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:03 pm

    thinking about it However big guns never tire is from the BRB, so any contraindications is settled within the rule book. , what we are discussing is when codex trumps BRB.

    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:04 pm

    Anarkhia wrote:It does not say under scoring units that they are by default denial units. They are both 2 different things.

    Then they are not denial units.

    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:05 pm

    Vangeleon wrote:imo irregardless of whether they scoring or not, the moment they become distrustful allies, they dont count as scoring units for your army. (In that situation/game)

    In your opinion that is fine. Rules dictate otherwise Wink( as explained above).

    Rakoo
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Rakoo on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:10 pm

    Damkat wrote:thinking about it However big guns never tire is from the BRB, so any contraindications is settled within the rule book. , what we are discussing is when codex trumps BRB.

    For me it's pretty much the same situation: more specific rule covers general rule.

    In general - I don't agree completely with Allies of Convenience being scoring at ANY time. But we know GW sucks...


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    Damkat
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    Re: Allies

    Post by Damkat on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:14 pm

    Rakoo wrote:
    Damkat wrote:thinking about it However big guns never tire is from the BRB, so any contraindications is settled within the rule book. , what we are discussing is when codex trumps BRB.

    For me it's pretty much the same situation: more specific rule covers general rule.

    In general - I don't agree completely with Allies of Convenience being scoring at ANY time. But we know GW sucks...

    then the specific rule should overide the general. I dont have the rules infront so cant comment further.

    The situation is different howerver, as the codex ALWAYS trumps brb.

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