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    Charging Through Difficult Terrain

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    Anarkhia
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    Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:51 am

    Right, let's try and have another rules debate as i find this is a fundamental rule that has too much ambiguity within it. I just want to seek your opinions and not have it about how much GW writing skills makes us want to rip each others faces off Razz

    The question is, when is it required to make difficult terrain rolls when charging. It states that when a model "has to" move through difficult terrain, then they must take the test. But with random charge distances, how would one know if a model has to make the test or not before the distance is even determined.

    The thread here describes in much better detail what i'm trying to ask, please read.

    http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?346573-Charge-Distance-difficult-terrain

    For some additional info on the matter here's the FAQ update:
    Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
    Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
    more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
    reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
    make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

    Personally i think we should include Nurgling Chieftain's solution as a house ruling. But of course i'd like to see what the rest of us think on the matter


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    shepz101
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by shepz101 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 6:50 am

    It's a good idea, nice and simple and would keep the game running. If not, the idea of Kingofthesquats at the bottom of the Page is another good idea. It's Pretty much the same idea

    Damkat
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Damkat on Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:34 pm

    Yea nurglin chieftans solution seems fairest, and as shepz01 said will keep the game flowing.

    Mad Dam games workshop:x

    when they were play testing did this situation never come up? or was it like:

    'O, Matt, what happens here. My orcs may move through difficult terrain, do i need to roll?'

    'Oh good point, we never thought of that!! Ahh, i dont really give a poopies, let the masses argue over a simple integral game mechanic. Muahahahhahaahah!!'

    'Muahahahahah!!'



    Anarkhia
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:07 pm

    "oh and while we're at it, let's promise never to errata it either"


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    Animus33
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Animus33 on Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:46 pm

    I think the rolling of the 3 dice and getting the 2 lowest is fair enough quick and easy and makes sense really


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    Anarkhia
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:04 pm

    That's the standard rule when charging through difficult terrain. The question was what do you do if it's not as obvious as the example it gives in the rulebook


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    Rakoo
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Rakoo on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:21 pm

    It's easy.


    Rule says:
    Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
    Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
    more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
    reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
    make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”
    Just check shortest routes and you know. The shortest route will always be a straight line (unless there is other unit or impassable terrain).

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:29 pm

    Do you mean roll 2 dice then check shortest routes and roll the 3rd dice if you end up going through difficult terrain?


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    Rakoo
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Rakoo on Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:33 pm

    Anarkhia wrote:Do you mean roll 2 dice then check shortest routes and roll the 3rd dice if you end up going through difficult terrain?

    No, the shortest route is always straight line. So you don't have to roll or measure. It's pretty much like Line of Sight.

    Like that:


    Anarkhia
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:01 am

    What about the diagram examples from the link i posted. When the terrain is between the 2 units, it will usually be very obvious. It's when the terrain is to the side of the unit, or models furthest back are in terrain while the remainder are not.


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    Rakoo
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Rakoo on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:11 am

    I would say (which is for me against logic but it's like rule says) - they go through difficult terrain as long as the line isn't longer than 12 inches (or max charge distance) because you have to try maximize the number of models in b2b. So they have to go around unit. The roll is done later.

    Edit:
    The answer from Chapters Unwritten to Nurgling Chieftain post is pretty much the same as what I think:

    To me, that diagram makes it obvious, along with the rule that you must try to engage as many models in solo base to base as possible before stacking up: while you do not know the range, you DO know that you must attempt to engage, in single base contact, every model possible. So you have to roll difficult terrain for that charge. In order to do that, you must pass the terrain.

    By the same logic, you have to roll it for the one above, too.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:54 am

    Ok so in short what you're saying is that as long as a unit is charging another unit, one or more models is within 12" of engaging an enemy model that will have difficult terrain in their shortest path, then the whole unit must test for difficult terrain.

    I believe both solutions fully abide by the ruling and that is where the ambiguity is.

    I will make a poll soon and everyone will be able to vote on what they think should be the ruling


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    Vangeleon
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Vangeleon on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:09 pm

    sounds simple enough, i always thought of it as rakoo says

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Anarkhia on Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:33 pm

    I can see it being exploited to hell, for example this situation.



    Now because some of the reds have to go through terrain to engage each model, the whole unit must take a difficult terrain test.

    If that's the case i can foresee lots of dicking around with model placement (even more so than now) to exploit rulings. Nurgling Chieftains method seems less fussy, speeds up the game more and cancels out having an extended argument as to whether you'd need to roll for difficult terrain or not in the first place.


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    Vangeleon
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Vangeleon on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:50 pm

    i see what you mean, as far as i believe, its shortest route to shortest route, w/o considering having to go round models to engage an unengaged model in the side (also in terrain).

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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Vangeleon on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:55 pm

    i would see it as this.



    closest to closest each model is able to legally engage without having to go over terrain.

    i can see the point that bottom left may need to go round models to engage an enemy model. however that doesnt have to be the case as he can default to simplying being within 2" of an engaged model

    Rakoo
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Rakoo on Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:59 pm

    Vangeleon wrote:
    i can see the point that bottom left may need to go round models to engage an enemy model. however that doesnt have to be the case as he can default to simplying being within 2" of an engaged model

    Not according to rule saying that you have to engage as many free enemy models as possible. You cannot simplify it to be within 2".

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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Vangeleon on Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:14 am

    before i post can some1 post cc of rules here so i can confirm (as im at work).

    Rakoo
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Rakoo on Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:25 am

    Taken from Warseer post:

    “If possible a charging model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with another charging model. If there are no enemy models in reach the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with a charging model.” (6th Ed. BRB Pg. 21)

    Vangeleon
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Vangeleon on Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:32 am

    Sorry need full rules for charging not just that extract Very Happy

    Kelmacett
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    Re: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

    Post by Kelmacett on Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:44 am

    -1- kingofthesquats solution.
    if not then
    -2- Nurgle chieftain solution.

    My head also blew up when i read the rules conundrum (fecal dump) that this is.

    After i've glued it together i will try and make some sense of it. But i think that the 1st choice above follows a sensible approach and adds excitement as you wont know what that third dice result is.





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