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    Breaking the habits from 5th ed

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    Anarkhia
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    Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Anarkhia on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:59 pm

    I thought I might make a thread to point out the rules that we might naturally assume (despite not having read anywhere in the 6th ed rulebook) to be true. I'll try and post them as they come to me. Feel free to add your own, or to discuss about any of them.

    Monstrous creature and cover:
    There are no special rules for monstrous creatures and cover any more, which means they gain cover like infantry. So aside from the 25% rule, monstrous creatures also get area terrain cover AND from intervening models! (That means termagaunts now give trygons 5+ cover, crazy)

    Transport vehicles and units charging:
    Units being transported can never charge on the turn they disembark (apart from assault and open topped vehicles). That also includes vehicles that have remained stationary OR vehicles that have been exploded/wrecked in the previous turn!

    Assaulting a unit in ruins:
    If a unit is attempting to charge another unit in a ruin on a higher level, but there is no space to fit the model, it is perfectly acceptable to place the model on a level above or below and still have them counted as being engaged in base contact. Supporting attacks can be make within 2 inches on the same level, and 6 inches from another level.

    Regrouping falling back units:
    If a unit is falling back and under 25% not 50%, it may still rally on double 1's. If there is an independent character in the unit, the unit may always rally on his leadership.

    There's some I can think of right now; please add any of your own if you find them.


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    Kelmacett
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Kelmacett on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:42 pm

    Assaulting a unit in ruins:
    If a unit is attempting to charge another unit in a ruin on a higher level, but there is no space to fit the model, it is perfectly acceptable to place the model on a level above or below and still have them counted as being engaged in base contact. Supporting attacks can be make within 2 inches on the same level, and 6 inches from another level.

    Dude for this could you give us the rule referrence?
    Further to the above please note that only certain types of units can go up levels in ruins e.g infantry can and monstruous creatures/cavalry cant.


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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Anarkhia on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:48 pm

    You should agree with your opponent
    at the beginning of the game whether or not any other unit types
    can enter the upper levels of a ruin (Walkers and Monstrous
    Creatures could be allowed to enter sturdy looking ruins).

    Monstrous creatures and walkers are allowed, as long as it is agreed upon.

    In some cases, the ruin might genuinely be unstable or uneven'
    or the space could be very limited on a particular level, making
    it impossible to move charging models into base contact with
    the unit they wish to charge. When this happens, it is perfectly
    acceptable to place models as close to their foe as possible,
    including the level below or above, providing that you make
    clear to your opponent which of your models are in base contact
    with his models.

    It says it clear as day that the space could be limited, and therefore the charging unit may be placed below or above the level


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    Kelmacett
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Kelmacett on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:56 pm

    Dude im not disputing the ruling on the placement of models on asking the page referrence so i can read it up when i get home.

    Are these copy/pastes from the rulebook itself? Seeing as you are determined to just not say!!! Razz

    As to the walkers and monstruous creatures climbing to second levels this may have to be ruled on for clarity, else people with no monsters will they cant and those who do obviously will say they can. Hence why i wanted the page referrence.

    For clarity to everyone else there are units that are not allowed to go to the upper levels of ruins according to the rulebook now for example Cavalry. These are the current rules, therefore until announced otherwise (club ruling or clarification) rules as written apply therefore cavalry cannot go up levels.

    Monstruos creatures and walkers are pending the above requested rules referrencing.

    Cheers
    Dan


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    and the Rubric absolute.

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    Anarkhia
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Anarkhia on Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:09 pm

    Lol sorry, the unit types and ruins is under pg 98 "moving within ruins". The assaulting reference is on pg 101. Those were direct copy pastes from the rulebook, i didn't just write what i felt like Razz

    Personally i think that monstrous creatures and walkers should be allowed on multiple levels (although being a nid player i would say that wouldn't i Razz). I think it's a huge detriment to nids (and other armies with MC's too) that we could be playing a ruin map, place the objectives on higher levels, and then have the whole army dancing on the upper floors and not having any real way of dealing with it. It's also completely absurd visually that a trygon can be as large as 3 levels, but can only touch the people at the bottom of its base. To add to that, most armies walkers are next to useless now, and with that added rule, practically makes them even more so.

    That's just my opinion, but i reckon we should meet up and make an official house ruling as standard


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    Damkat
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:35 pm

    'You should agree with your opponent
    at the beginning of the game whether or not any other unit types
    can enter the upper levels of a ruin (Walkers and Monstrous
    Creatures could be allowed to enter sturdy looking ruins).'

    Dude this is indeed in the rules, but only the last bit of the rules, you failed to mention that the units which can definatly go in ruins are listed and in bold text.

    The main rule stipulates what units can enter ruins. beasts infantry, skimmers, jump packs, jetpacks, and jetbikes are all definitive.

    As a side it then goes on to say that any other unit type may be allowed if agreed beforehand(section Julian quoted).

    After reading ALL the rules pertaining to ruins I think we should go with the definitive list rather than try to agree what is and what isnt allowed.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Anarkhia on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:37 pm

    Damkat wrote:This quote is yet another cop-out on games workshop part. Just make a ruling FFS. NExt they will FAQ by saying ' u can enter ruins but it is against the spirit of the game and you will be a complete plonka if you do!'

    Lol damn right. Still can't believe they did that before.

    I was using the example they gave themselves. If a building had a ramp, i'd argue that cavalry units could use it to get to the upper level. It's all relative to the terrain piece, and if we decide that certain ruins can/cannot allow for "x" unit types, it wouldn't be too hard to remember. But if we're going to do that we'd all have to agree upon it.

    I just want games to be more fun and less about rule/game exploitations.


    Last edited by Anarkhia on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Damkat
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:42 pm

    *edited my post after reading rules Smile*

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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:35 pm

    Anarkhia wrote:
    Damkat wrote:This quote is yet another cop-out on games workshop part. Just make a ruling FFS. NExt they will FAQ by saying ' u can enter ruins but it is against the spirit of the game and you will be a complete plonka if you do!'

    Lol damn right. Still can't believe they did that before.

    I was using the example they gave themselves. If a building had a ramp, i'd argue that cavalry units could use it to get to the upper level. It's all relative to the terrain piece, and if we decide that certain ruins can/cannot allow for "x" unit types, it wouldn't be too hard to remember. But if we're going to do that we'd all have to agree upon it.

    I just want games to be more fun and less about rule/game exploitations.

    I agree with the fun bit entirely, the only thing is if we dont use the RAW it will lead to RAI which will lead to rule/game exploitation. her do you draw the line etc.

    I am firm believer in RAW, not beacause i am a rules lawyer, but because it avoids conflicts. What is written is what goes, none of this it should have said this, or the author really meant this etc.

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Anarkhia on Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:49 pm

    Sometimes badly written RAW leads to rule/game exploitation as well, hence why i think it's important we try and find as many of them and discuss them between each other. Then we can house rule it until further clarification. It won't be easy and at least one person would probably end up unsatisfied with the result. But i think within us there would be a majority siding to one answer more than the other, so we'd have to take majority vote until we all agree or GW finally make a coherent rulebook/codex (which will never happen lol Razz)


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    Vangeleon
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Vangeleon on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:17 pm

    It sucks but alas dont think we should change it, for my space wolves my thunder cavalry cannot go onto ruins but beasts can, sucks but oh well, will have to suck it up.

    Lost a game at dans because i only had cavalry left my opponent simply got onto 2nd lvl ruins for an instant gg

    Anarkhia
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Anarkhia on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:34 pm

    In my opinion if we house ruled that objectives had to be on the ground floor (like we used to, and may still be doing for all i know), that'll bring some fairness and sportsmanship back to the game


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    Damkat
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:40 pm

    fairness/sportsmanship? how can this apply where you want to modify a ruling which inherintly by its nature, is designed to impede some of the most powerful units in the game. You want to remove this limitinf factor?

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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Vangeleon on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:42 pm

    a house rule can be made, however objectives need to be placed on ground floor so no issue there. and although u cannot kill the unit holding it you can certainly contest.

    And damien u shouldnt be using fairness/sportsmanship? with your other post mate.

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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:46 pm

    @Dorian, i take offence at that, im basing mine on rules, and not inventing wording like you have.

    Dude you always turn every single discussion personal. you need to educate yourself on manners m8!!!

    Vangeleon
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Vangeleon on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:53 pm

    What words have i invented. and any offence taken was not intended, however each to their own. your post and the way u conveniently wanna change a rule por la cara is quite :O imo.

    julian at 1st was wrong, this discussion is about making a house rule, which will follow a vote which makes it fair, it doesnt look like it will go in his favour, but at least its fair either we agree with it or we dont. Yours is a blatent attempt to use a small extract of rules in your favour relating nothing to what the rule was intended first.

    Im not trying to cause an argument, but i just find it funny that you quote "fairness/sportsmanship?" when your previous post is completely against the spirit of the game.

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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:56 pm

    Actually m8, before your hotheadedness takes root, READ THE POSTS PROPERLY. Julian mentioned fairness/sportsmanship, i quoted him.

    anyway cant be arsed with this poopies anymore!!

    Damkat
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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:57 pm

    poopies poopies poopies poopies poopies

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    Re: Breaking the habits from 5th ed

    Post by Damkat on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:57 pm

    s h i t lol

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